Overproduction and overconsumption are two of the biggest issues in fashion today. But who — or what — is behind it?
In this special short series, Conscious Questions, Stella and Elizabeth dive into some of the most talked about and ask questions in the sustainable fashion space. Today, we're talking about a big one: overconsumption.
There were 100 billion items of clothing produced in 2014, according to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. But that was before the rise of ultra fast fashion giants like Shein. So that number is likely much larger today!
And global fiber production increased to a record 113 million tonnes last year, according to the Textile Exchange. That figure has almost doubled in the last 20 years and is expected to further increase to 149 million tons by 2030. Yikes!
So who or what is to "blame" for this rapid rise of overconsumption and overproduction? We're sharing some perspectives in this episode.
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ELIZABETH
There were 100 billion items of clothing produced in 2014, according to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. But that was before the rise of ultra-fast fashion giants like Shein — so that number is likely even larger today.
And according to the Textile Exchange global fiber production increased to a record 113 million tonnes last year. That figure has almost doubled in the last 20 years and is expected to further increase to 149 million tonnes by 2030.
What is driving this rapid increase in production? And what's driving the overconsumption of these clothes?
In this episode, the final installment of our special short series, Conscious Questions, Stella and I are diving into these questions.
As always with these Conscious Questions, we hope they can spark conversations and bring light to some elements of the discussions on these topics. We don't have all of the answers — these are massive, complex issues that the entire industry must grapple with.
However, we're sharing our thoughts and takes on these issues in these episodes. If you want to share your thoughts as well, let us know if we missed something in this conversation or if you agree or disagree with something, DM me — Elizabeth if you're new here — over at ConsciousStyle on Instagram and we can chat!
I hope you like this episode and that it gets your wheels turning. It's our season finale episode so we'll be taking a bit of a break under we come back in 2023. Make sure to subscribe or follow to this podcast so you don't miss our upcoming season. And if you want to stay in touch in the meantime, follow on Instagram or subscribe to our newsletter at consciouslifeandstyle.com/subscribe.
Okay now onto this week's episode…
ELIZABETH
Hey there and welcome back to our special short series — Conscious Questions — where Stella and I explore of the most talked about and asked questions in the sustainable fashion space.
Today, we're talking about a big one: overconsumption and overproduction.
STELLA
And if you're wondering, in previous Conscious Question episodes, we have tackled some pretty big topics, such as can fast fashion ever be sustainable, are fast fashion resale programs progress or just more greenwashing? How can we talk about slow fashion with our friends and family? And is slow fashion unaffordable?
So if you're curious to learn more about those topics, you can scroll back in the podcast feed to tune into those episodes if you missed them. But today, we're really diving into another big topic, which is who is really driving overconsumption?
ELIZABETH
Yeah, as we said before, we do not shy away from the big topics on this podcast.
And today, I thought it would be interesting to address a comment that I got on an Instagram post on the @consciousstyle Instagram account. And, this was a post that was sort of calling out a brand and talking about overproduction and overconsumption.
This comment said, "less volume means more expensive, not many people are willing to pay double the price for an item. Brands respond with high production, because there is a demand for cheap products. So people need to change. You are poking at the wrong end."
I wanted to address this comment, because I see comments like this often, perhaps not as critical and provokative, but comments along that theme quite often. It's all consumers fault. They're 100% responsible and they're the only ones that can make any sort of difference.
And I wanted us to unpack it because I think there are more layers or nuances to this question than can get communicated on social media. What do you think Stella?
STELLA
I mean, it's a pretty provocative comment. It is obviously something that you know, there are views on this in the industry and among lots of people but I think the way they phrased it is so accusatory and just like, yeah, pretty provocative.
But I think it plays into this narrative as well of the idea that fast fashion democratizes fashion. So it really came about to provide cheap clothing that many people can access. I think we did touch on this quite a bit in the previous episode on affordability and slow fashion.
But I think when I heard you reading this comment, that was really what I was thinking about there is this sense that fast fashion brands are really just there to respond to the need to democratize style and fashion when it comes to affordability.
It's an interesting thing, because it almost globalizes style in a funny way. It kind of narrows out what people wear, because all of these mass produced clothing items, often only available in very specific trends.
When it comes to price there is this belief that cheap clothing is more democratic. But yeah, I think it was interesting how blaming this comment was and how much you've just focused on the consumer. And it really left no room for debate about the root causes of these issues around overconsumption and overproduction.
ELIZABETH
Yeah I'm totally with you. I mean, you know that I do believe that overconsumption, fashion haul culture, buying new things for every occasion, getting ten different $5 shirts just because it's cheap, and all of those types of activities are definitely problematic.
Especially when we think about influencers' role in all of this, and their potentially millions of viewers of their hauls on TikTok or elsewhere.
But I also think that this narrow view of it's ALL the consumer's fault — they started it and it's completely on their shoulders to address this massive problem is a bit over simplistic and ignores some other key factors that led to where we are today.
First of all, something that I often think about is that consumers don't necessarily know what to demand if the supply isn't there. Like they don't know, we don't know, that something could exist if they don't see it. If we don't see it. If we don't see it advertised, if we don't see other people wearing it.
For example, consumers didn't invent polyester. Right? A scientist at DuPont invented polyester in the 1930s and then DuPont wanted to find businesses to use that polyester. And then those businesses, including clothing brands, incorporated polyester into their offerings, and it's taken over more and more.
And now, over two thirds of what's available on the market is synthetic fabrics, most of which is polyester. And I don't even think the general public has even been aware (and maybe even most people are still not aware) that these are fabrics made from fossil fuels.
So some of that is lack of consumer education as well. But also it's like why is it even an option for consumers to buy clothes from fossil fuels?
Well, because Dupont, the company also responsible for putting PFAS, forever chemicals in nonstick cookware and poisoning an entire city invented it and wanted to profit from it. So there's that.
And when it comes to the scale of production. To some extent, there was some demand or a need for it. In the episode I did with fashion historian Sara Idacavage about the history of fast fashion, Sara talked about how people did need sort of mass produced fashion, because they didn't have enough clean clothes to wear. And they needed nice-looking clothes for work.
So to some extent, there was a need for lower-priced, mass-produced garment industry. as opposed to made-to-order garments industry.
But the extent of production now has just gotten completely out of hand. And that's in large part due to the fact that our economies in many parts of the world, are dependent on year over year GDP growth, and companies have to grow and increase their profits for their shareholders, every single year if not every single quarter, if they're publicly traded.
So if you have to grow as a company and you have to make more profits to appease your stockholders and investors and you sell products, then what do you do? You produce more products.
So it's not like these big fashion companies are purely responding to consumer demand. They are also responding to the demands of their shareholders or other investor's demands. That is another element that we have to talk about.
There's so much more to be said to that, but we need to think about all of these factors driving this increase and not just consumer demand, because that's just one part of it.
STELLA
I totally agree. And I think your point about even the scale is what blows my mind because we know that clothing is being produced at a rate and scale, that we have more clothing in the world that we could ever wear.
Like it's unimaginable the scale of waste in places like the Kantamanto Market and Atacama Desert, and even the stats that you were mentioning at the beginning of the episode, and it's really difficult for me to understand how clothing at that scale can be something that consumers demanded.
Because it's clear that if you can't even wear the number of clothes that they are in the world and however many hundreds of years, it's not realistic that somebody would actually ask for that.
Because yes, we want style and we want access to clothing that helps us express who we are etcetera, etcetera.But the scale is what really gets me here, like that has to be something that's manufactured, that constant cycling through trends. That trends are also artificially manufactured, right?
A lot of the time they pull on, yes, they pull on history and things and other spaces, but they are determined well before that the clothing has been in the stores and they've seen how people are reacting. And often even when we speak about color, I know that colors of the year or whatever are often determined well before clothing seasons and there is definitely an artificiality about it.
So it's an interesting thing to think about because when you start looking at trend forecasting and the way, clothing is just brought into our lives to make us seem like we really need it or really want it. That's when I started to question whether it's really just coming from consumers — this desire for constant new clothing and cheap clothing.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, 100%. And you had such a great article on fashion trend cycles, the five stages of a trend, and how trends come about. So I will put that article in the episode description because I think that's really important for us to understand.
We often think that trends just happen. But there is industry influence behind it. There are people whose entire job is to create or continue trends, so it's not necessarily a naturally arising, but sometimes these trends are invented.
And it's also interesting to think about how ultra fast fashion brands have been part of making that trend cycle move faster, and they make people feel like they're irrelevant or not wearing the latest stuff if they are wearing things from a few months ago.
And my episode with Zainab on why fast fashion is so addictive illuminated some of this. Like she talked about some of the messages that companies like Pretty Little Thing put out that sort of encourage this consumption for every occasion. New stuff for every weekend. Like they are contributing to that culture, and they are the ones financing the fashion influencers to also perpetuate that culture.
I'm not saying influencers are not responsible, because they are, but not as much as the brands i think because they wouldn't be able to profit from encouraging daily outfit of the day's and shopping hauls if these fast fashion brands weren't paying them or gifting them hundreds, or even thousands of dollars worth of products.
And consumers also play a role in this of course, because we're eating it up. Influencer's affiliate links don't make money if people don't buy from them, brands couldn't exist if people stopped buying from them, these sponsorships wouldn't be valuable if they didn't lead to sales to these fast fashion brands.
But I do think that we have to go to the source and recognize that consumers are being fed these messages of "overconsumption is normal" or "having new clothes all the time is what everyone else is doing" because of these ads, the obvious ones that are labeled "ad" and the more subliminal messages, like a brand's own Instagram feed.
And consumers can go against this, and I do think that we should be active citizens and try to fight against this system!
But it does feel counter cultural sometimes. I feel that a lot. it can be more difficult since slow fashion is the "alternative" to the main stystem. And the reason why it's more difficult, even though slow fashion is basically how fashion was decades ago, why now does it feel counter cultural?
Because this fast fashion system exists. This system was created, and it wasn't created by consumers.
Another point that I wanted to bring up that Zainab touched on was that these brands are coming out with weekly or even daily new arrivals set the pace for how often people shop. How often they feel like they need to see what's new.
Why do fashion brands release new stuff every day? They want people to be shopping and checking the app every single day. That can make people feel like they're missing out. What if those brands only released new stuff 4x a year like fashion used to? That would set a completely different pace.
In all of this, I'm not saying trends need to cease to exist, because obviously, I wouldn't want to still be wearing what women were wearing in the 1880s. Trends in themselves are not necessarily evil. I think they can be fun to an extent.
I just think it's good to be mindful of all of the many many ways that we're being influenced about what is in and what is out and what we should be wearing or shouldn't be wearing, and so on.
STELLA
Right, and I've experienced this, now that I'm more conscious of trends and the way they work, and just been on the slow fashion journey. I always sometimes have to catch myself, when I'm looking at something.
Say, for instance, a pair of shoes online. I am like, I really, these are so beautiful. And I feel like I really want them. And obviously now I go through this process of all these questions of, do I need it? Does it go through with a lot of items in my closet?
All of these questions that reflect on, am I just wanting this because it's a trend or not? But sometimes I really have to catch myself and look at it objectively and be like, a few years ago, would you really have wanted this? Is this something that just came into your life because you saw a lot of really stylish people wearing it, and all of a sudden, it became so desirable?
And I have had moments like that where I've had to catch myself and be like, actually, I don't think this is my style. I think I've just realized that I desire it because I've seen it so much. And because it has become a trend.
And like you said it's not to demonize trends, but it is to be aware of how things come into our consciousness and like our peripheries, even sometimes, and really just make their ways into our lives, convince us that we really need them and that is somewhat artificial.
I really loved how Shakila Forbes-Bell spoke about it in your previous episode on fashion psychology, and she was just saying that from every angle, we're bombarded by marketing and cause to consume, whether it's the music in stores or newsletters that are constantly in our inboxes or press drops that influencers get sent.
Like we're really up against so much. It's hard to imagine fashion without that extreme and marketing angle to it. And I'm wondering like if that marketing didn't exist, would this person still have commented, what they commented? And really thought that it comes from consumers?
And maybe then we'd really see if it's consumers pushing the system or is it a binary? Or is it both at the same time? Because I think we're so distracted oftentimes by just how ever present like all of these marketing channels are.
ELIZABETH
Right. I mean I used to work in marketing so I can kind of see how it works. There is a product that's created, and sometimes it's out of consumer feedback, so the idea might not be out of thin air.
Like to an extent we do need clothes, and we want attractive clothes that we feel good in. I get that.
But then once the product is created, the marketer's job is to convince people to buy it — they need people to buy how ever much was produced basically.
Maybe we need sweaters, right? LIke I am wearing a sweater because it's really cold outside — so I need something warm for the winters here, and I would appreciate it if it looked good too.
But then a fashion brand might be ok we designed this cute warm sweater, let's manufacturer 100,000 of them. And then that fast fashion brand's marketing team has to sell those 100,000 sweaters.
How do they sell those before the season is over and there's a whole new slew of swimsuits coming in for spring and summer? Well they have to advertise it. And this is NOT saying that all marketing is bad. Because how does anyone even know anything exists without some sort of marketing?
Marketing is going to be a part of basically every brand. But marketing done irresponsibly does play a role in encouraging in overconsumption. And I don't even think it's all marketing's job.
And when you think about it in a literal sense, the only case where consumers are literally demanding what exactly is produced, is the made-to-order or pre-sales model. Otherwise the first step is the production, and then the demand or consumption comes second.
So consumers aren't the first ones. So again, this isn't saying consumers don't play a role. But even when you look at fast fashion's model, it doesn't make sense to say that consumers are the originator. Even when you look at the series of events, historically and also in the supply chain of that production. So that's something to consider as well.
STELLA
Yeah. Yeah, it's a tricky one. But I totally agree. And I was just thinking that a good episode to listen back to is your episode with Amanda McCarty from Clotheshorse. Because she really unpacks the extent to which fast fashion companies because she's worked within at least a couple of big, fast fashion companies, the extent to which they go to sell inventory.
And she was saying exactly what you're saying around, they produce first and then they all find multiple ways to really sell inventory, and they go to the ends of the earth basically, to do that. And I didn't really fully understand how just deep rooted the fast fashion system is, until I listened to to that episode.
Just in terms of like, the internal workings of companies and sales targets, and the ways things have changed from year to year as, as fashion has become more of a prominent player in the fashion space and like the normal way that people mostly relate to fashion.
So I would really recommend that episode. Because I think after listening to that, you're really understand that the majority of the push is not coming from the consumers. It's coming from the companies. The big corporates that just are really chasing never-ending profit increases year to year.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, totally. And I also think we should think about how overproduction happens regardless of overconsumption in the sense that Big Fashion brands often can't sell about 30% of what they produce. Most sources say it's around a third. Which is wild to think about! It never even makes it into a consumer's shopping bag or
closet. Like it never gets sold.
And those numbers are going to be smaller for small brands, that produce more intentionally. Which is another reason to support these small slow fashion brands instead of conscious collections from Big Fashion Labels…
But anyway, while slowing down demand helps, it doesn't completely get rid of clothing waste. And we hear stories of brands burning stock, slashing and damaging bags, jewelry, clothes.
The Trash Walker is a great account to follow on Instagram and TikTok for more on that, but it's just SO key to go about it from both ends.
Also in an episode I did with the organization SumOfUs and with Angela, who lives by fashion's waste dump, in the Atacama Desert, like a lot of those clothes still had tags on, and they were from the manufacturer. They never even hit a store, they didn't go in anyone's closet. So we can't forget that piece of the puzzle when it comes to fashion waste that about a third is directly from the brand. That has nothing to do with consumer demand.
In fact less consumer demand means that waste might be higher, so we have to go about it from the brand side of things as well.
And we also need holistic legislation that gets to the root of these overproduction problems. Like in my episode with researchers of the Wellbeing Wardrobe report, they talk about how regulators can limit the production volumes from fashion brands, and I think that's a really interesting idea.
We can also tax waste, like with extended producer responsibility laws, but what if we could reduce the initial production of that waste in the first place that made sure there was only so much a huge fashion brand could produce.
But yeah I think we have to go at it from all ends — and I really didn't like that this commenter said, you're poking at the wrong end, as if we have to choose one end.
STELLA
For sure. 100% I hated that part of the comment. Because it just made me feel like… it makes me feel so guilty, as well. And I think there's an underlying theme that I think about a lot.
Because we have also seen sustainability becoming a bit of a trend in the fast fashion space, you know, being picked up by brands wanting to create the facade and greenwashing, sustainability, trying to convince people that they're going green without changing the workings on their business model.
But I think what this comment isn't addressing is also this fact that often big brands want to frame sustainability as an issue of consumer choice, right? Like consumers don't want it so we don't have to provide it. And like the solution to the fashion’s waste crisis or fashions overproduction crisis is well, consumers should be demanding recycling or using less or buying natural fibers or whatever it may be.
And it's because they don't really want it — they want cheap clothes and stylish clothes and trendy clothes. So if consumers don't want it, why should we provide it? And there is definitely this narrative playing out in the space.
And it's obviously used to their advantage to cite why they just continue doing what they're doing. As you mentioned, it's not as if they're going to change when if there's a drop in consumption consistently but I think that it also raises this idea that offering sustainable products without actually being a more sustainable business is also not quite going to solve the massive issues that we are faced with.
And these conversations around who's pushing consumption? And who's responsible for it? We really need to question the kinds of narratives that the big corporates are also pushing in terms of blaming consumers or making it an issue of consumers need to say this industry, and we're just following what they do. So if they don't want it, then we don't have to act.
ELIZABETH
No, completely. And it's like they took the blueprint from the fossil fuel industry, right? Shell's infamous tweets about calculate your carbon footprint! What are you doing to reduce your carbon footprint?
And, you know, there's so many funny responses to that like, I pledge not to dump barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. So it's really interesting.
I think a lot of corporations in the sustainability conversation climate conversation, tend to do that, because like, they want us to try to shift the blame away from them, and a really easy way to do that is by sort of putting the onus on everyday people, on consumers.
Again, I do think it goes both ways. Because I don't want to say, I also don't like when people use that as a reason to be like, conscious consumption doesn't matter at all. And I'm like, of course, it matters. Like, of course, it's part of the puzzle, like we should be slowing down. And we shouldn't be like, not putting our money into these brands.
Because we're funding them by buying things from them, we are literally funding them and enabling them to continue to exist. So if we can, really it does matter, it does help to like, not support them. Kind of like to defund them, right?
The whole like divesting movement. Fossil fuels, taking your retirement money out of fossil fuel stocks or choosing a bank like Aspiration that doesn't fund fossil fuel companies, things like that, that does have an influence, because that's the sort of economy that we operate in.
So that does actually make an impact. Just don't think that, A, we should be like blaming consumers, because I don't think consumers caused the problem. Are we maybe continuing it? Do we have the power to help stem it? I do think so.
It's really hard to like, kind of like, bring in that nuance. But I hope that sort of — that's my sort of like, stance on it is. Like we can make a difference. But it's not our fault. It's not all on our shoulders.
I think that I think this is a great time actually to talk about consumer activism, and how we can start to drive the changes beyond what we do or don't buy, because not everybody has that choice.
I'm not here saying we have to be 100% perfect about everything that we buy. I do think buying less, choosing secondhand, supporting small, conscious businesses does help. But I think at the end of the day, consumer activism is what's going to really push the big brands to take action.
STELLA
Right. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that we mustn't forget that there's a reason why sustainability is on the agendas and in the minds now of these big corporates. I believe it stems from grassroot movements and organizations and changemakers in the space, who are really saying, this is the future. And you can either adopt it or not, but you know, this is a way fashion needs to move.
I always remember that when I think when people push back at me and say, Well, how are just ordinary people or organizations going to influence the way fashion works. I really just think about and obviously there's a lot of greenwashing in this space, but the fact that it's even on the agenda of these corporates, like there are ways to, even if it's just getting them to think about the fact that this is what people are calling for now.
Individuals and organizations and collective movements really do have influence. And I think it's also this idea of how we buy and relate to how clothing is also as important if not more important than what we buy.
So that's where consumer activism comes in. And I think it ranges, you know. It could be calling out a brand on social media, it could be volunteering for a local organization, or even just getting involved in a local organization to have conversations with other people who are also thinking about these issues, maybe they have projects they are working on that you can get involved in.
I think that consumer activism also extends to organizations that are doing a lot of union building work on the ground, in garment production countries and hubs across the world, who are really trying to shift the way and the power dynamics of the industry. So there are lots of different ways to get involved.
But for me, the biggest thing is to create a community around it. To really be with a group of people, and be able to have your ideas heard and feel like there is a sense of unity among just like-minded people who can now like, you know, use their influence to affect change. Even if it's just in your family or community or even brought on a national level or global level.
But activism, I guess, sometimes sounds like a little bit intimidating. And I had to learn that it has so many different ways. If you're a writer, that's you know, also can be considered a form of activism, you're just pushing back at a system or making people aware of different dynamics in the system in a different way doesn't necessarily have to look like showing up at a protest. Although that is one very important form of activism. So, yeah.
ELIZABETH
And I'll definitely drop links to organizations to check out for people if they wanted to kind of join a movement.
Labor Behind The Label does a lot of amazing work in the UK. Remake does work all around the globe, they are based in the US, but they do actions all around the world. And yeah, I think it's just, if you can plug into some one of those organizations and learn more about ways to take action.
To your point, it can be as simple as reposting something on Instagram or retweeting something on Twitter. Or it can be joining a protest, it kind of, kind of depends. And you can just dip your toes in it and kind of grow your advocacy journey.
Just like with conscious consumption, right? I think a lot of us have this journey of like, we started dipping our toes in it. We maybe started going to the thrift store, or we're like we started saying, oh, you know, I want to boycott fast fashion. And then we slowly integrate it. And we're like, oh well also where does my food come from? Where does my furniture come from?
And I think it's similar with advocacy or activism. Maybe you start by following Remake and you comment on brand's posts, share Remake's, campaign Instagram reels.
And then you eventually become a Remake Ambassador, and then you sign a petition, and then you join the protest. Like you don't have to do it all right away can just sort of like, just get started whatever way you can.
STELLA
Right and I think you don't even have to go all the way ever if that's not what you have capacity for in your life, right?
ELIZABETH
Yes.
STELLA
I was thinking about how I'm kind of privileged in the sense that I work in the space that I care about. I love slow fashion, but I also work in slow fashion. So I have the ability to really do quite a lot in the space in terms of advocacy.
But there are normal people who work in lots of different jobs and career paths and just have different lives who maybe the most that they can do is sharing things on social media because they don't have the time to invest in joining organizations and showing up for events and that kind of stuff.
And I think that that's something I've been thinking a lot lately. That's also so 100% fine and should be celebrated and accepted in the space too. Because at the end of the day, it's not about creating a group of people that are just 100% dedicated to this movement.
Like, I just want everybody to slowly think about — and this, like you were saying extends to food and homeware, and a whole lot of other consumer systems in our lives — but just like, so many think about where your clothing comes from? How do you relate to it?
Is there a tiny little something that you can incorporate into your habits or routines that can create some kind of advocacy? And if that's that, the capacity that you have then I think that's amazing. I just wanted to add that in.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, no, that was a beautiful point. And I'm so glad you said that. Like, absolutely, you don't ever have to go to a protest, if that's not something that you feel comfortable with; it's not accessible to you. We all have different sort of, like, layers of privilege and power, and influence.
And I really liked what the Or Foundation, they had like an Instagram post, I think about this. Which was “act at your level of influence”. And I think that's a really nice way of looking at it.
Fast fashion brands have the most sort of power to do something fast fashion influencers with a million followers, and making tons of money off these brands also have influence.
And then each of us, like everyday people, you know, I have a small Instagram account relative to these fast fashion influencers, but I can still do what I can.
To your point, yeah, we work in this space, so we have sort of more ability to kind of do things broadly, do things that's really specific, right?
STELLA
I just dedicate a lot of time, because we already work in this space. So a lot of our time is dedicated to advocacy work, in whatever form, even this podcast.
ELIZABETH
Absolutely, yes. Well said. And then just like, if you're someone who consumes fashion, someone who buys fashion, that's also like a form of influence.
And I often struggle with this sort of balance of like, personal responsibility without individual blame.
Like to your point before, it's really convenient for fashion brands to just blame consumers for everything. Yet, I don't think that we should just opt out of the system and just be like, while fast fashion just exists, and it's not my fault. So I'm just gonna keep doing my Shein hauls. Like, that also was like, even if you didn't create the problem, like, I don't know…the struggle.
STELLA
I struggle with this so often because I say so often that I don't want to guilt people or blame people into changing. And I agree with what I say most of the time. Because I also think, and I speak from a South African context, where I am just very aware of creating shame and blame around topics when there is a big socioeconomic divide.
But I think there is nothing that irks me more than watching somebody who I know has masses of disposable income, masses of like, you know, they spend a lot of time shopping and buying things, but then it comes out with these Shein hauls. These Fashion Nova hauls constantly, and just like rips open bags of, I don't even know how many sometimes like 20 items, if not more.
And I feel, you know, bad saying that I think that guilt does have a role to play in situations like that. But I actually believe that. Like, if you don't feel a little bit guilty about those kinds of behaviors, then how are you going to change?
I'm an introvert. So I'm not somebody that like shouts at people, calls people out that much like in terms of behavioral change. But it really does irk me. And I do think that to an extent in those situations guilt you should feel a bit guilty. I don't know how to word that any better. But yeah.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, no, that's something as Aja Barber says, is that people say that you shouldn't shame or make people feel guilty. But she was like, actually, that was a big part of my journey is that I felt started to feel guilty.
So it also maybe depends on the person a little bit. And yeah, it's hard to say totally what works for everybody. Yeah, like the sort of balance between like cancel culture, and calling in people to maybe change a little bit, shift what they're doing, having those conversations.
Yeah, I would say that a really angry Instagram comment is probably not the best way. But I don't know, what would you recommend? What do you think?
STELLA
Well I think, I keep saying Shein because it's just like one of the most glaringly obvious examples of our time.
But I think when I share or people share posts about Shein, and their extreme human rights violations and all of their environmental sustainability harms, I think that I've seen people who have bought Shein before sharing them, interestingly enough.
And yes, of course, it wasn't caused by somebody like tagging that exact person and telling them to stop buying Shein. But I think, in that, you know, that experience of reading a post about their extreme harms, and then sharing it or even not sharing it, but just reading about the realities of the situation, there is probably a level of guilt in changing your own behavior, if you're somebody who is open to that.
So, for me, as somebody who's an introvert and also like, a writer, and somebody that like that, that's my form of advocacy, most of the time. I think being able to share the realities and just the underlying systems of fashion is, I wouldn't say it's guilt-tripping people, but I would say it's calling them to reflect on their own behavior.
ELIZABETH
It's confronting.
STELLA
It's confronting, exactly.
ELIZABETH
Maybe that's like, a nice way of putting it.
STELLA
Exactly.
ELIZABETH
I don't know.
STELLA
No I agree with you. Because I don't think I'd be able to center my work around guilt-tripping people, but to be able to share information that is confronting in a way that causes you to reflect and hopefully change your own behavior is something I could get behind.
But I think, you know, in your internal system, guilt is probably the feeling that you feel. Because I know even at the start of my journey, guilt was the feeling I felt about the fast fashion pieces in my wardrobe.
So maybe it's not, you don't have to be on a mission to make people feel guilty. But guilt is often the catalyst for individual reflection and, and hopefully change.
ELIZABETH
Yeah and there was a great episode of the podcast Hot Take where they were talking a little bit about motivations in a climate action context.
And they were talking about anger as an emotion that drives people. And that, that can be a very powerful motivator. That was something that I really resonated with. I feel like that's how I came into this slow fashion conversation.
I probably should have felt guilty — more guilty than I did. But I remember feeling very angry. Because it was 2013, the Rana Plaza factory collapse. I was so angry at fashion because I grew up loving fashion. You know, I wanted to — I had the Teen Vogue Career Guide.
It was something that I wanted to enjoy and I was just so disappointed and just angry. Just furious that that could happen that that was allowed to happen and then is often the emotion I feel when I'm reading books and articles about these topics is I feel angry.
But it really motivates me. Like that's for me… perhaps you also like different people have different emotions that motivate them. Some people maybe are motivated off of inspiration as well.
I've definitely felt that at times. I definitely.. seeing other slow fashion bloggers when I started my journey was helpful for sure, that inspiration.
STELLA
Yeah, no, that's relatable. I've heard that from quite a number of people. And I like how you put it about how there are probably different emotions depending on the person that catalyzes them to look into the industry or question their own consumption habits.
I think inspiration was probably mine because I started a clothing swap. So seeing the possibility of alternatives was what got me to even look into the human rights violations. And then the anger came. So I think it's probably maybe sometimes even a mix of many emotions.
But yeah, it's interesting to reflect on because it doesn't have to start with guilt — it could start with anger, it could start with inspiration. But I think it's always the ability to take that emotion and apply it to the way you think about the world and the way you want to interact with things you own, your clothing, your food systems, all those kinds of things that really matters. Like how do you make use of those emotions, and reflect on them?
But I think this phrase that I heard quite a lot for a while on Instagram, and I feel like it's died down now. "There's no ethical consumption under capitalism" has been one that has caused quite a lot of contention. And I think then plays into this, like what we're talking about, around, I guess, individual responsibility, but also like our emotions linked to the way that we exist in the world.
I was wondering if you have any thoughts about this quite provocative statement that was making its rounds?
ELIZABETH
Yeah. I think extreme statements like that are always missing layers and context and nuance —
But yeah, I do think it's not true. There's definitely a difference between supporting a small, marginalized, conscious business who's doing everything that they can to operate sustainably versus buying some Amazon fast fashion brand. When Amazon was exposed by the Wall Street Journal to be using blacklisted factories in Bangladesh.
So like, literally worse than the name-brand fast fashion brands. Like literally the worst factories you could be using. And I believe that article is unfortunately behind a paywall. But yeah, it made its rounds years ago. And it's just like, there's a difference between that, of course there is, you know?
STELLA
No, yeah, I agree completely. And I think you gave words to my thoughts. Yeah, I think it draws on this, this other idea of voting with your dollar. I don't believe that we can buy ourselves towards, like a sustainable fashion system.
I think it obviously has to be in conjunction with consuming less, and being aware of the amount of things that we're buying and the effect that that has on people on the planet.
But we often speak about power dynamics and redistribution of wealth in this industry and that feels like such a big lofty conversation. And often, like, how do we even affect that?
But then I think about how spending or investing my money in a small business that I literally have spoken to the owner, they can probably introduce me to the people that work for them, can probably tell me exactly where they got their fabrics, all of that. I think about that. And like that, for me, in my personal life is my way of slowly redistributing things.
Of course, it's a small action. And of course, it's not going to change the entire fashion system. But do I feel good about the fact that my money is going to a place that I trust is going to be using it for good? And to really enable like the dreams as a business owner, but also to support people across the whole supply chain that they have to engage with to create the product? Yes.
And I think we need to think about where our money goes as a go to a more equitable economy, in terms of like, are you supporting maybe a woman-owned business? Or a person of color or Black-owned business?
Like, there are definitely ways that our individual like actions and practices echo into bigger systems and I am an optimist, so I have to believe in that.
But I think to just, I don't know become complacent by saying that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, it's just something that makes me feel like, no. It's not how things are gonna change.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, complacency is a good word. I think what bothers me most about that provocative statement is that I feel like it's most often used. I don't know how it was originally intended. But I feel like it was often used,to sort of, as an excuse to like, step out of the system and be like, I'm going to do whatever I want.
You know, it's almost like this nihilism, which I see a lot with climate change, which is like, well, we're all you know, screwed. This is a clean podcast — we're all screwed, who cares? I'm gonna live my life and do whatever I want, anyway.
Because people feel like maybe really angry or feel really guilty, but then they don't see any alternative, and so then they just kind of step out and say, well, like, well, nothing I do matters anyway. So like maybe looping back to our conversation from before on motivation. Maybe we like, kind of need a combination.
STELLA
For sure. Yeah, I think so too. And I think it's interesting, because we need to, as we're advocating for sustainable fashion, we need to create clear and practical examples of not only how to get there, but what we want to replace this fast fashion system with.
So it becomes, of course, it starts in the practices that we all engage in, in our day-to-day. I'm talking about people that advocate for slow fashion. And, you know, I think they're, of course, I wish capitalism wasn't as omnipresent and invasive as it is. But to be honest, this is the system that we're working with.
And I have so many inspiring examples of people creating change on the ground, and people in alternative fashion business models, and just changemakers, whether it be influencers, or people working in advocacy for NGOs, like there are so many examples of alternatives that I just so clearly believe that there is a way to change system.
And we need to find little ways that we can all work towards a better future for everybody.
Because that original comment was really an all-or-nothing comment. It's just consumers. It really has nothing to do with production or brands or marketing. And I think that this conversation has really showed the nuances of often it's a complicated system where there are many forces at play.
But in terms of fashion, like consumers are often — I wouldn't say on the receiving end, because we're not we have a lot of agencies, I don't want to use that phrase — but in terms of marketing and pushing trends and constant consumption, on the receiving end of a lot of those kinds of systemic pushes that contribute to overconsumption.
So yeah, I hope this is kind of… I hope the person that commented listens to this episode and realizes that it's not as well know nothing as they may have thought it was.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, totally. I think that was a common thread throughout all these conscious questions that things aren't maybe as simple as they seem on the surface, which is such a great sort of … I think that there’s love that about podcasts that you have this long-form content and the space to explore that.
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