Is it green... or just greenwashing? This week, we’re sharing a recap of a few Green or Greenwashing topics we covered this season! Green or Greenwashing is a segment on the podcast where we evaluate if a certain sustainability measure is more green or whether it veers into more of the greenwashing territory. These Green or Greenwashing segments were previously published at the end of some prior episodes. The first segment we are resharing is whether third-party resale sites should ban fast fashion after a decision from Vestiaire Collective to do so. Then we will move into a recording where we discuss whether we really need "climate adaptive clothing". Finally, we evaluate if recycled polyester is truly circular.
Is it green... or just greenwashing?
This week, we’re sharing a recap of a few Green or Greenwashing topics we covered this season! Green or Greenwashing is a segment on the podcast where we evaluate if a certain sustainability measure is more green or whether it veers into more of the greenwashing territory. These Green or Greenwashing segments were previously published at the end of some prior episodes.
The first segment we are resharing is whether third-party resale sites should ban fast fashion after a decision from Vestiaire Collective to do so. Then we will move into a recording where we discuss whether we really need "climate adaptive clothing". Finally, we evaluate if recycled polyester is truly circular.
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Elizabeth Joy
Welcome or welcome back to the conscious style podcast. I'm Elizabeth.
Stella Hertantyo
And I'm Stella.
Elizabeth Joy
And as you might have seen, we are at episode 98 already. We're just a couple episodes shy of episode 100. And as you may have heard, we're planning a special edition 100th episode, which will feature curation of guest and listener responses to the final question we ask in every interview episode: What does a better future for fashion look like to you? So keep an eye out for that coming in just a couple of weeks.
Stella Hertantyo
Yes. That's all super exciting. And this season on the podcast has been all about the intersection of fashion and climate. And one of the main aims of this podcast is really to be able to break down these super complex topics that sometimes feel inaccessible in a way that makes sense so that we can all make more informed decisions when it comes to our relationship with fashion and also call in brands on their greenwashing tactics so that we can work towards true sustainability in the industry.
So leading up to the 100th episode, we have been reflecting on the journey this podcast has taken us on, and we wanted to share a recap of just a few green or greenwashing topics we have covered during season 5.
And for those of you who are unfamiliar, green or greenwashing is a segment on the podcast where we evaluate if a certain sustainability measure is more green or whether it veers into more of the greenwashing territory.
Elizabeth Joy
Right. And sometimes not an either-or. It's not black or white, but somewhere in between or certain contexts are important to consider. So podcasts are perfect opportunity to dive into some of that nuance and context behind some of the initiatives or projects or topics that we're discussing.
And also to note, while we do our research for these episodes, we know that some of it is about our perspective and our personal opinions on things. So we would love to also hear from you. Did we miss something? Do agree with something, disagree with something? Is there another topic you think we should cover for green or greenwashing in the future? You can let me know any of that on Instagram, DM @consciousstyle.
And before we dive into the green or greenwashing topics, I wanted to mention that these have been published in previous episodes at the end, so you might have missed them or you might have heard them.
But to give you a road map of what to expect in this episode, the first segment we are resharing is whether third-party resale sites should ban fast fashion after a decision from Vestiaire Collective to do so, then we're gonna move into a green or greenwashing recording where we covered climate adaptive clothing. Do we really need it? And then finally, the 3rd green or greenwashing segment we're including in this episode is our evaluation if recycled polyester is truly circular.
Stella Hertantyo
Yes. And as usual, please don't forget to visit the show notes in the episode description to subscribe to our free weekly newsletter, the conscious edit, which is packed with resources for you to keep learning about all things sustainable fashion. You can sign up at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit or click the link in the episode description.
Now let's dive into the episode.
STELLA
So, today we are discussing something that happened at the end of last year in November 2022, which is when Paris-based luxury resale platform Vestiaire Collective said they had taken the decision to ban fast fashion brands from being bought, sold or listed on their platform.
And Vestiaire Collective's decision sent shockwaves through the industry, and sparked many conversations about secondhand resale and the way that fast fashion is impacting the global secondhand trade.
ELIZABETH
So the question here is, is it green or sustainable measure to ban fast fashion from a resale platform, from a secondhand marketplace? Or is this more greenwashing territory? Stella, what are your thoughts?
STELLA
So my initial thought was, Why would Vestiaire Collective do this? And I think it's potentially to show the reality that fast fashion is flooding, secondhand market at unfathomable rates.
And I think, though, what's important to note about their decision is that banning fast fashion from their platform was only the first step of their plan. The rest of their decision centered around partnering with the Or Foundation.
And for those of you who aren't aware of the Or Foundation, they have this really incredible organization that works in Ghana, with the ecosystem around the Kantamanto Market, which is a destination and community that shoulders a lot of the burden of waste colonialism in the textile industry.
And they're joining forces with The Or Foundation to lobby for and champion the implementation of EPR policies, which facilitate a shift to a justice-centered circular economy.
Vestiaire Collective's also committing themselves to finding practical solutions for the fast fashion, fashion items in their community, which includes practices like recycling, upcycling, and constructive donation strategies.
They're intending to educate their customers who already own fast fashion on how to extend their life cycles without listing them on the platform. And this also includes other circular fashion practices, which includes repair services and learning how to upcycle and mend and keep our garments in the loop or longer.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, I feel like that's really important context, because that wasn't necessarily communicated in they're like, sort of shocking Instagram Reel that they posted that garnered a lot of eyeballs and comments.
So they also had on their website I saw have like these three steps laid out: One reject fast fashion, two: work with the Or Foundation, which you were, you know, explaining what they do. And then three is to lobby for change for things like extended producer responsibility, so to get countries to take more responsibility for the waste that is being created within the country.
Something else I found interesting is that they're also going to set criteria to get rid of low product quality, poor working conditions and to lower their overall carbon footprint. Which is like amazing goal. Love that.
But I'm very interested to see the implementation because luxury brands are also guilty of having poor working conditions in their supply chain. For example, I know Know The chains 2021 Apparel and Footwear Benchmark report showed that there were no they were showing fashion companies efforts to fight forced labor. And LVMH, which owns Dior and Louis Vuitton only scored 19 out of 100. And Prada scored 5 out of 100. And like, in Fashion Revolution's Transparency Index brands like Dolce and Gabbana, BCBG, Tory Burch, they have the same scores as Shein.
So, you know, just because it's luxury and expensive doesn't mean it's ethical. Which that could be an important nuance that gets missed with this ban.
STELLA
No, that is such a good point. And I think, also on the topic of waste, because I know they're working with the Or Foundation. But if we think about this, in the terms of the broader resale context, if all resale platforms banned fast fashion, then we'd still have a massive waste issue.
And also, I think, interestingly, to note, an issue of exclusivity in the preloved movement. And I think luxury fashion pollutes, too, as you were saying. Probably not as much as fast fashion. But we've seen the viral videos of designer bags being thrashed and trashed. And all around this idea of creating exclusivity.
And I think another big consideration is that Vestiaire Collective is a luxury resale platform. So it's not a platform where your everyday thrift enthusiast like myself would go. But yeah, luxury.
ELIZABETH
Yeah it's [fast fashion] is a very small percentage.
STELLA
Yeah, exactly. And luxury goods are expensive, even if they're secondhand. So making the preloved movement accessible really means ensuring that there are price options for everyone. And I think that's why, you know, this question of fast fashion secondhand is important because even buying a fast fashion garment preloved still makes that garment last longer.
And not everybody can afford secondhand luxury or has the privilege of choosing to invest in like really high quality, pricy pieces. So, yeah, although we'd still advise keeping your money away from greenwashed, fast fashion in-house resale platforms. I think this is just something to consider in terms of inclusivity in the movement.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, totally. The price point can still be quite high for luxury fashion secondhand. And, yeah, we don't want people to think that like, it's unsustainable to buy fast fashion secondhand. Like, I think that message, you know, that could get confusing where people think that even secondhand fast fashion is unsustainable, where actually we should keep that stuff in circulation as long as possible.
And something a little bit concerning that Vestiaire Collective's Chief Impact Officer said was that, quote, "fast fashion has no value and even less in resale." End quote. And yes, while there isn't much monetary value, I do believe we should still value our clothes beyond that, right?
Those clothes have been produced, people have made them. We can still take care of them. Even if they were cheap, financially speaking, they can still be, you know, cared for and last reasonably long.
But I will say that something else that the CIO said, the Chief Impact Officer that it did like was, quote, "We've taken this step because we don't want to be complicit in this industry, which has a tremendous environmental and social impact. The current system encourages overproduction and overconsumption of low quality items, and generates huge amounts of waste."
STELLA
Right.
ELIZABETH
So I do appreciate that. They're like taking a stand and doing something and raising awareness. I know ThredUP has been very vocal about being anti fast fashion lately, as well. But yeah, I don't think as you were saying, if all third party platforms started banning fast fashion resale, where does all that go?
I think ThredUP has an interesting take where they're sort of going… they're being very vocal about being against new fast fashion, and they're doing these like digs at brands like Shein. But they're still maybe reselling brands.
However, one last note that I will say before we wrap up, is that I really do understand it from a customer perspective. And like, not every resale platform has to appeal to everybody, right?
Like we should have accessible, maybe secondhand fast fashion that's at a low price point. That is going to be what some people want. But also there's a certain customer that doesn't want that.
Someone commented on Instagram post I made about this news. And they were like, oh, this is so exciting. I hate sorting through all the fast fashion on secondhand sites.
And so banning fast fashion also for Vestiaire Collective maybe leads to a better customer experience for their customers who are very interested in like luxury and higher end fashion. So I do understand why a specific platform might do it. But I do think like, yeah, as you were saying it would be problematic if it was like banned on every third party platform. What are your final thoughts? What's your like final take on this?
STELLA
I think my final take is that, you know, Vestaire collective decision really teaches us that instead of purely focusing on whether or not third party resales sites should be bad in fast fashion, what we should all be doing is finding ways to implement circular fashion practices into our own lives. And at the same time lobbying for legislation that can make you know, secondhand supply chain more equitable across the board.
ELIZABETH
Mhm, yeah. I mean, I definitely understand where that comes from. For sure. I guess I do feel slightly differently. I do think like decisions like these from such a major platform with like hundreds of thousands of followers and customers does make an impact.
But I definitely definitely agree that these other two aspects of like being mindful of how we're being involved in the secondhand fashion system, and also lobbying for legislation. Those are really, really important things.
And I just think that this brings up really good questions and conversation. Like, even the comments and Instagram post I referenced, it was really interesting hearing people's thoughts.
And Liz Ricketts of The Or Foundation had, you know, of course, they're working with Vestiaire Collective… But, you know, she was saying that like, this is a big issue, with fast fashion flooding the secondhand markets in places like Kantamanto Market. So it's gonna take experimentation, trial and error, people just trying different things.
And so at the end of the day, I feel like it is an experiment and I like that they're taking some sort of stand. Also, like ThredUP is taking a stand. I really appreciate that. And we'll see what like the downhill effects are of this. And it'll be interesting to watch for sure.
STELLA
I couldn't agree more. Yeah, that's such a good point.
ELIZABETH
This week, I wanted to talk about something that was brought up in an article on Vogue Business called "Clothes for the Apocalypse: How to Design for Climate Crisis, which talked about performance where brands that are basically designing garments for extreme weather.
STELLA
So the green or greenwashing question in this episode is all about whether climate adaptive clothing or clothes designed for the apocalypse is a truly necessary factor in the fashion industry as we are in a climate crisis, or merely another buzzword and trend that is not necessary.
What are your thoughts, Elizabeth?
ELIZABETH
Oof, yeah, I mean, this, my first instinct was kind of eh, this is kind of weird. And I thought about it more. And for me, it all comes down to the intention, right? Is this out of a genuine need? Or is this using the climate crisis to sell more stuff, which is very icky.
And, you know, I get it, we certainly do have more extreme weather: hotter, colder, drier, rainier, more likelihood of extreme fires. One of the brands featured in that article had like fireproof clothing.
So I don't know. I guess the marketing around clothes for climate change feels a little iffy to me, because it's like, is that positioning, there's a climate crisis, therefore, we need to buy more stuff, that's like also probably contributing to the climate crisis, because we know fashion has such a heavy carbon footprint.
But at the same time, maybe we do need different clothes. Maybe we do need different garments to help us withstand different weather situations. I don't know if that's, I'm not sure yet what I think.
STELLA
Yeah I know, I agree. I think the marketing is a bit. Yikes. Like when I was reading the article and the wording. And I think something that kept coming up for me while I was reading it, which is also not to bash the article. But to say that it prompted a lot of thought.
Something that kept coming up for me is that you know, who's going to be able to access this clothing? Because in the sustainable fashion movement, we speak a lot about needing to create inclusive alternatives. And the more I read about these really complex technical climate adaptive clothing innovations, it seems like these would be clothing items that would only be available to financially privileged people, that would be able to afford them.
And I don't know, somehow that really didn't sit right with me. Because, you know, we know we're in the middle of a climate crisis, and it's going to affect us all. But currently, it's disproportionately affecting people in the countries in the Global South. And I'm just thinking about, you know, like, the floods I've witnessed in my own country, or floods in Pakistan, or droughts happening across Africa. And I'm just thinking about, like, would these people really be able to invest in this clothing. And would it really help in these situations?
ELIZABETH
Yeah, that is a really, really good point. But I am like, going to some of the brand websites, pages. And yeah, it's like a jacket for $700 or, a shirt for a couple hundred dollars. So that is definitely important to think about that, like maybe those those that are even most impacted by the climate crisis wouldn't be able to afford pieces like this.
STELLA
Even myself, I don't think I would necessarily be able to afford, you know, such investments. So yeah, it's interesting to think about cost. Yeah, accessibility.
ELIZABETH
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I think that's a very real concern. And to be honest, I don't think I don't think I would, I would buy these things.
I mean, so another huge question, in terms of like, the sustainability that I have of these performance materials is that most waterproof gear is made using PFAS or forever chemicals — called that because of their persistence in the environment and in our bodies. And so the big question is like, what materials are being used?
I do hope that if these clothes are climate ready, they will be very durable. And I do wish that was more part of the marketing that these are really made to last and like, you know, just thinking also about the sustainability of the garment themselves. So like, these climate adaptive clothes aren't furthering our, you know, part of the problem with fashion contributing to the climate crisis in the first place.
STELLA
Yeah, and I think on that point, I totally agree, because I don't know that's just my hot take. But I think I while we put on our bodies, when the quote unquote, apocalypse reaches us, is not necessarily going to save us.
But the way we make clothing and the way we consider supply chains, and distribute, you know, wealth equitably within the fashion system and make decisions within sourcing that are more sustainable. I think the way we adapt our production systems to be in harmony with people and the planet has a very strong chance of lessening the effects of extreme climate changes. And I, for me, that's where we need to be focusing our energy.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, 100%. For sure. I feel like, like going back to the beginning, like the messaging is just so important. And it does feel really off when a brand says like, clothes for the apocalypse, it definitely veers into like climate doomism, which I think is really dangerous, and just so depressing.
You know, like, yes, we need climate adaptation. Completely. Of course, we do. We are already seeing very significant changes. But we also more than anything, need climate action especially from such a polluting industry like fashion. And yeah, I don't know this apocalypse language to me doesn't sit right, personally.
STELLA
No exactly. It's really about separating this marketing language, from the true sustainability intent of the brand, like, for example, this clothing for apocalypse phrase, it feels like that's the reason that the brand is creating clothing, and out of this extreme urgency, which and you know, an impending doom, which is not to lessen the urgency of the climate crisis.
But I think that in designing clothing that is not extractive and exploitative speaks to a belief that another kind of world is possible. And we need to know not just focus on like the short term urgency, but rather look at these long term practices that allow us to live in harmony. So yeah, I think it's just about sifting through marketing, as well.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, totally. Totally. That was such a beautiful way to put it, but I guess, yeah, let's talk about our final takes, like green are greenwashing.
I mean, for me, it depends on the context, like not using it as an excuse to make more stuff. But considering like if we are going to make clothes perhaps and make them climate crisis ready, I guess, then let's make them useful, durable, and obviously sustainably? I don't know. What do you think?
STELLA
No, totally. I think my takes have already come out in the episode. But to summarize, I think, you know, we need to find ways to not make this another avenue for exclusivity in the sustainable fashion movement, especially when the climate crisis is going to affect us all.
And then also just to focus on just really intentional sustainable production and ethical production. Instead of creating more doom and gloom narratives that just create a sense of panic in the midst of this crisis as well. Yeah, I think that's all for me.
ELIZABETH
Absolutely, absolutely.
ELIZABETH
This week we're talking about recycled polyester.
Many fashion brands promote recycled polyester as sustainable or circular. And the number of brands using recycled polyester is rapidly increasing.
According to a market analysis, the global recycled polyester fiber market is expected to reach 9.8 billion US dollars by 2026, a 12% increase from 2019. And dozens of major fashion brands have signed on to textile exchanges 2025 recycled polyester challenge to increase their share of recycled polyester to 45% by 2025.
STELLA
Also to note, the nonprofit organization called MADE BY has an environmental benchmark for fibers which ranks fibers from classes A to E, A being the best, and they put mechanically recycled polyester in Class A and chemically recycled polyester in Class B. They put recycled polyester above linen, cotton and even hemp.
And there are a lot of criticisms of this benchmark, which are rightfully so in my opinion. But let's dive into this is recycled polyester more green, or greenwashing? What are your thoughts, Elizabeth?
ELIZABETH
This is such a juicy one. But I think it's really important to cover because I feel like I get questions and comments about this all the time.
So let's first let's talk about if it's circular. So the entire season — gosh was it Season Two or Season Three was all about circularity. So we talked a lot about circular fashion. And I feel like the key thing to remember here is that circularity is like about a circle.
And so just having recycled inputs isn't really enough to call it circular, right? We also have to consider where it's going at the end of its life. And can it be then regenerated again. And currently, with textile recycling, it is not possible to recycle recycled polyester again. So, you know, calling it circular I think is not true?
We can we can say maybe it's recycled, but not all recycled materials can be called circular. And also, of course, it's synthetic. So it can't be composted, either. So what is the fate of that recycled polyester garment? Like, can we reasonably call that circular? I don't think so.
STELLA
Agreed. And even if recycled polyester, in a garment is mixed with, you know, a natural fiber like cotton, which can be recycled, the fiber types have to be separated before recycling occurs. And when fiber types are combined, they're quite difficult to separate because, you know, recycling technology hasn't advanced to scale at that point yet. And there are only a few chemical recycling companies that can actually do this at present.
ELIZABETH
I think another important element to consider is like, where's the plastic coming from? And this is really important for brands I feel to avoid potentially greenwashing, even accidentally or just stating like, not entirely true claims.
STELLA
Yeah, and this is really interesting and something that I didn't know until I looked into it properly. But recycled polyester is actually obtained by melting down existing plastic and respinning it into polyester fiber. And most of the recycled polyester being used by leading fashion brands doesn't come from polyester textiles, but from plastic water bottles instead.
ELIZABETH
Right and The New Standard Institute actually unpacked this claim that recycled polyester is saving plastic water bottles from the landfill and I'll leave this link in the show notes. But they're basically pointing out that the only bottles that are getting recycled into the recycled polyester clothing are the bottles that made it into recycling bins, usually.
So in most cases, what's being you know, what saving bottles being put in a landfill is that individual person's decision to put that bottle in the recycling bin instead of a trash can. Though, I will say some brands do use plastic that has been sourced, like from oceans and beach cleanups and stuff. New Standard Institute lists Repreve Our Oceans as an example. And I think there are other examples.
So it is possible, but just really important to look at, like, where's that plastic coming from? And also, like, is the brand being truthful when saying things like saving plastic bottles from the landfill? Is that really true?
But I guess the biggest question for me is like, is it better than virgin polyester, right? Because we think about things like activewear and swimwear, that maybe are typically made with polyester. So is it better than to replace it with recycled polyester? You know, recycled polyester reportedly reduces emissions by 32% and is using 59% less energy than virgin polyester, according to WRAP.
So I mean, comparing it to virgin polyester is sort of a low bar, since that's a fabric literally made of fossil fuels. But a question to ask nonetheless.
STELLA
No, that is very true. And something else I've really been thinking about is that although using recycled bottles for clothing means we're able to avoid virgin polyester, we're so adding polyester to the clothing stream by using bottles. Because they come from outside the fashion industry, instead of you know, from polyester clothing. So there's still more polyester in our clothing. Before if that makes sense.
ELIZABETH
I have literally never thought about it like that. But that is so so true. And it's kind of changing the way that I think about things. That is, that is such an interesting perspective. I really appreciate that.
Yeah, and polyester a lot of the time is completely unnecessary, especially when we see brands like Boohoo or other fast fashion brands that make everything from synthetic materials, right, like dresses, tops, pants, it doesn't matter. It's like all synthetic.
And maybe it makes sense for performance wear to be synthetic or swimwear to be synthetic at this time with, you know, where we are in material development. But like, that's not necessary for your entire clothing range.
STELLA
No, totally. So yeah, I think this has been interesting, because as you were saying, polyester is used in so many garments. I have many garments that have even just like a small amount of polyester in them. And it's super common for it to be blended with other fibers, which means that not only in polyester, wearing natural fibers exclusively, is really difficult, even for people like us who are super aware of like the issues.
And we don't want to demonize it because it is, as I said, hard to avoid. But we need to make sure that we're getting the most wear out of our clothing, regardless of whether it has polyester in it or not. And try to ensure that it's durable, secondhand perhaps if that's accessible, and also just helping us understand the nuances of recycled polyester is great in opening our eyes and just knowing what's out there.
But with that being said, I think it's also a conversation. You know that it's important for being able to debunk the marketing that sold to a lot of us as consumers that recycled polyester is the fashion industry's solve-all solution to fossil fuel extraction, because that definitely feels greenwashy.
But perhaps it shouldn't be like a question of whether it is or isn't better. And rather, we should focus on how to minimize the usage of polyester across the board, whether it's recycled or not. And also just minimize overproduction. Because at the end of the day, that is the crux of this issue.
ELIZABETH
Yes, brilliant point. I feel like just adding nuance is like I feel like gonna be a common theme throughout these Green or Greenwashing segments is that things aren't necessarily always black or white, but I wish that we would acknowledge more that like maybe this is the best solution for XYZ at this time, but also it's worth investing into other approaches in the long term.
And there was an article I read in The Guardian kind of questioning "is recycled polyester sustainable?" And even like the Director of Sustainability at Gap, literally pointed out that recycled polyester is not necessarily sustainable. And for instance, microplastics are still a big issue.
Which it's like, if you look at the marketing of Gap and the other brands Gap owns like Athleta. You would not know that that's their take. Right? You would there that like they think that's the solution.
And the writer of that Guardian article actually did point out that this may be the internal messaging within the companies that recycled polyester isn't the long term solution, isn't really reaching consumers?
So like adding more nuance to the marketing around this, I think is really, really important. Maybe saying like, you know, for something like swimwear, recycled polyester is our best bet right now. I know like there's a brand, an amazing brand, Natasha Tonic that makes swimwear with cotton and hemp and I do have a swimsuit from them that I love. But for the large majority of swimwear, like that is at the moment, the best we have, but like, we should probably be shooting for better in the long term.
STELLA
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that's such an important point, because it does all come to, you know, how it's marketed, and also how information is conveyed to us as citizens and consumers. And we can make our own decisions as well from there. And also lobby for yeah, more systemic changes in the long run.
ELIZABETH
For sure, yeah. I mean, definitely, like reducing production levels, and just wearing that we have longer I mean, that's definitely like the crux of the fashion sustainability issues, as you were talking about before.
But one final point, I just wanted to bring up with this whole recycled polyester thing. And this is something that's been a newer realization, for me, is the potential toxicity.
STELLA
Mhm.
ELIZABETH
There was a report by Human Rights Watch that exposed the health impacts of plastic recycling in Turkey and Turkey recycles a lot of the EU's plastic waste. And they're basically talking about how, as you were mentioning, in the beginning that plastic has to be melted down when they recycle it.
And so that releases the toxic chemicals that are in plastic into the air. And, of course, putting plastic in the landfill, or it gets incinerated, also releases harmful chemicals. So, there isn't maybe necessarily a good solution for plastic. So it's complicated. Like, the main goal is reducing the initial production of plastic, of course.
STELLA
Completely. And I think on the note of toxicity, we also need to take seriously how much of a massive problem microplastic pollution is, regardless of whether it comes from virgin or recycled polyester. And, you know, there was this report by Science Daily titled "An Underestimated Threat" which suggested that there is four to 23 times as much micro plastic pollution in soil as there is in the sea, which, yeah, just blew my mind.
ELIZABETH
Woah.
STELLA
Exactly. So what are the final takes on this very juicy topic?
ELIZABETH
Yes, right. So I'll just emphasize that, like, these are our thoughts, of course, based in research and a lot of reading, but at the end of the day, we're not saying that, like, our takes are the final absolute takes, and we always welcome your thoughts and opinions.
But with that caveat, I'm gonna say recycled polyester is not circular. I think that's untrue. Especially if the brand has no repair program, or like, end of life solution for those garments.
Saying it's sustainable, I don't think it's true either because it can't be sustained forever. You know, it's not recyclable, and it's also from a non-renewable resource, and it's pretty toxic as we covered. So yeah.
STELLA
Yeah. I think at the end of the day, recycled polyester is still polyester. It doesn't perform any better. It doesn't eliminate microplastics and toxicity, and it's still non-biodegradable and non-compostable.
ELIZABETH
Yes, for sure. And then, I do think as I said, it's largely unnecessary. I think fast fashion brands are definitely overusing recycled polyester, but it's like for things like activewear, performance wear, like winter jackets and swimwear, I don't know if alternatives are really available at scale and at reasonable prices for most people.
STELLA
Yeah. And I think on that point, one more piece of nuance is that it's especially what you were saying is especially true for brands who are trying their best to mitigate their climate impacts across the board and also steering clear of overproduction.
And we know that this journey is imperfect for many small brands and ourselves included. So if polyester, recycled polyester is the best and only option out there to keep producing more sustainably made items like activewear from small brands. And yeah, I don't want to shun people from trying their best with what is available at this current moment.
ELIZABETH
Yeah, I love that nuance that you brought in there as well, because we do know it is really difficult for like, small, slow fashion brands, for instance, there, they don't necessarily have the budget to like, invent new fabrics, and you know, they might be doing their best but yeah, I think it definitely if you are a brand, if you are a designer, I think it's worth really doing that research into recycled polyester and evaluating if it truly is the best fabric to use, or if there are alternatives, I would say like if there's an alternative, you know, that's a natural, more natural alternative. I feel like that is going to be preferable, generally speaking.
STELLA
Completely.