What if fashion brands put garment workers first? What if a fashion brand set the prices they pay to their suppliers based on ensuring workers were making a living wage, rather than negotiating the prices as low as possible to maximize profits? This is part of implementing more responsible purchasing practices — purchasing practices meaning not how the consumer buys something, but how the brand purchases their orders from their suppliers, since most brands do not produce their own clothes. The reality is that right now the system is set up with the wrong incentives. For example, Buyers at many fashion brands receive bonuses if they achieve larger margins with their orders they purchase from their suppliers — larger margins meaning they pay their suppliers less, and thus the supplier will have less money to pay their workers fairly or invest in sustainability initiatives like transitioning to clean energy. So we need a paradigm shift. True systems change. And one proposal for doing so is worker-centric pricing, which Stella and I are going to dive into in this episode!
What if fashion brands put garment workers first? What if a fashion brand set the prices they pay to their suppliers based on ensuring workers were making a living wage, rather than negotiating the prices as low as possible to maximize profits?
This is part of implementing more responsible purchasing practices — purchasing practices meaning not how the consumer buys something, but how the brand purchases their orders from their suppliers, since most brands do not produce their own clothes.
The reality is that right now the system is set up with the wrong incentives. For example, Buyers at many fashion brands receive bonuses if they achieve larger margins with their orders they purchase from their suppliers — larger margins meaning they pay their suppliers less, and thus the supplier will have less money to pay their workers fairly or invest in sustainability initiatives like transitioning to clean energy.
So we need a paradigm shift. True systems change.
And one proposal for doing so is worker-centric pricing, which Stella and I are going to dive into in this episode!
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Elizabeth Joy
What if fashion brands put garment workers first? What if a fashion brand set the prices they pay to their suppliers based on ensuring workers were making a living wage, rather than negotiating the prices as low as possible to maximize profits?
This is part of implementing more responsible purchasing practices — purchasing practices as in not how the consumer buys something, but how the brand purchases their orders from their suppliers, since most fashion brands do not produce their own clothes.
The reality is that right now the system is set up with the wrong incentives. For example, buyers at many fashion brands receive bonuses if they achieve larger margins with their orders they purchase from their suppliers — larger margins meaning they pay their suppliers less, and thus the supplier will have less money to pay their workers fairly or invest in sustainability initiatives like transitioning to clean energy.
So we need a paradigm shift. True systems change.
And one proposal for doing so is worker-centric pricing, which Stella and I are going to dive into in today's episode.
And if you have been wanting to dedicate your career to driving change in the fashion industry, then you'll want to check out our sister platform, Conscious Fashion Collective.
Conscious Fashion Collective has a job board, career newsletter, and resources like interviews with sustainable fashion professionals dedicated to helping you learn more about sustainable fashion as a career path. You can check it all out at consciousfashion.co.
And we also have a membership where we go even deeper for those who are really serious about making sustainable fashion their career. We host several events each month, like workshops, community calls, and expert Q&As. We also have a member job board, a resource hub to support your journey, and much more.
You can learn more and join at consciousfashion.co/community. And those links will also be below in the episode description!
Alright, now let's get to this week's episode on worker-centric pricing…
Elizabeth Joy
So this topic of worker-first pricing was prompted by a Vogue Business article that Stella and I read titled, what if fashion prices put workers first?
And this discussed a research project by 2 academics, Linda Gross and Kate Fletcher, who are 2 of the founding members of the Union of Concerned Researchers in fashion that propose a new pricing model for fashion brands, where workers are consulted to determine a living wage, and that is used as the baseline for the pricing a fashion brand pays their supplier.
Typically, the price a fashion brand pays their supplier is negotiated down to maximize that brand's profits, but utilizing this pricing model would set a certain floor on living wages that's determined beforehand and that could not be negotiated down in contract negotiations. So pretty interesting proposition.
Stella Hertantyo
And just to really define what the Union of Concerned Researchers in Fashion, how they define worker-centric pricing.
So they say that worker centric pricing is a way of approaching pricing goods based on workers' weekly living expenses and not what a brand determines the market is willing to pay. It can be seen as a part of a process of building awareness of the existing fashion system's way of thinking and doing, and at the same time, exceeding other ways necessary for systemic change.
So it really gets to the crux of the matter because it's questioning the current practices in fashion, which are definitely not centering the experiences and perspectives of workers and definitely not valuing, you know, the work and labor that is put into creating products.
And it reminded me that the prices of fashion are actually arbitrary and artificially cheap, because they're not based on the true cost of what it takes to pay workers and what they need, but they're rather based on what the market will deem as acceptable, which yeah, is not a just way of running the fashion system.
Yeah. I think it's interesting because we have this concept of living wages and many sustainable brands are moving towards this and paying living wages and really thinking about what it means to pay garment workers fairly in a way that allows them to have agency over their own lives. So I think we are definitely moving in the direction of worker-centric pricing when it comes to living wages.
Elizabeth Joy
Yeah. Totally. And I took this course on living wages in fashion. And there was a very interesting question proposed of, like, is a living wage an ethical wage? Like, is that enough to be ethical just to basically give garment workers exactly what they need to live.
So I think that starting this discussion from the worker standpoint is really interesting and turns everything on its head. Like, it would be so fundamental in shifting the fashion industry. I think that's hard to overstate how fundamental this would be of a shift to fashion.
You know, the fashion revolution transparency index said that only 4 percent of brands disclose the number of workers currently earning a living wage, and they measure the the world's biggest fashion brand. So…
The fashion industry is just so far from this. It's almost hard to imagine, but I think that, yeah, when we're building working towards co-creating a more sustainable and equitable industry, we do need this really imaginative thinking, and it's very inspiring. To think about for sure.
Stella Hertantyo
I definitely agree. And I also saw recently on Instagram that Aja Barber, who is somebody I really look up to when it comes to just picking apart the fashion industry and speaking about what is needed to create a more just industry, Yeah. Aja wrote that, a post that said that “I think that anyone who shows up to talk about affordability should also have to explain the conversation to a garment worker. Explain to them that they shouldn't make living wages because then you can only buy 1 dress instead of 10.”
And, of course, she used the language of living wages, and we're talking about live work eccentric wages here. But I think it's a sentiment that really struck me because, obviously, like, the conversation around affordability in fashion is a nuanced one, and we have, like, discussed some of these elements in a previous episode, and the conversation around affordability in slow fashion.
But this post really still stopped me in my tracks and got me thinking because when it comes to fast fashion, how little it costs, like, never mind the sales is often, like, a bragging right.
And imagine taking that garment that you're bragging about to a garment worker and and saying how cheap it was. Like, I just can't really imagine that. So I think that this idea of work-centric pricing where the starting point for understanding what it cost to create a garment begins with a conversation, a process that includes garment workers, is just incredibly important as you said transformative for the way that we understand pricing and the way that we understand the value and true cost of fashion.
Elizabeth Joy
For sure. For sure. Yeah. And that quote from Aja Barber definitely brings up some provocative questions, and You know, I think that outside of this sort of sustainable fashion bubble that maybe sound like people might get really defensive about that.
But I think it's it is really interesting to distill it down to that. Right? Like, why do we feel that we have the right to boatloads of cheap trendy clothing that comes at the expense of people's lives?
I mean, literally in the case of factory disasters like Rana Plaza, but also to the extent that it may be literally impossible to escape poverty and exploitative work in the context of being a garment worker in the fashion supply chain because of the lack of living wages.
And so when we distill it to that, it's very jarring. And I think that, when we're used to being in a privileged position, it feels really, really uncomfortable. Like, you know, you don't want to sort of, like, accept the fact that this access to cheap clothing is coming at the cost literally of somebody's life. That feels really, really uncomfortable, and I think it's just, like, a matter of sitting in that discomfort maybe before, like, immediately reacting. It sounds very like, someone's calling you out, and I think that's why Aja gets a lot of unfortunately, a lot of, like, very strong comments and very strong criticisms. But she's kinda just saying it how it is.
And I think that I have to catch myself too on, like, social media, not necessarily in Aja Barbers posts because I, like, agree with those, but other people that I followed that are speaking truths to power, and it feels really uncomfortable. And, like, there's that immediate reaction -- of, like, no, That can't be true. But then, you know, just sit with it a moment and be like, wait a second, Am I saying that because it's really uncomfortable and I'm, like, feeling called out.
Stella Hertantyo
Right. Right.
Elizabeth Joy
Is it actually true if I sit back? Maybe it's not. You know, I'm not saying everything on social media true, obviously. We know that. But, yeah, I I think it's that's super super interesting to to bring up that quote from Aja.
Stella Hertantyo
Yeah. No. Definitely. And I think, like, the tricky thing is with fashion is because the systems of injustice are so entrenched, it's going to take systemic change to change anything. And that's going to take addressing these power dynamics, which we have already touched on.
But yeah, it's not gonna be like, we have to do it in a way that really does transform the way we value the people that make our clothes. And, yeah, I think it's going to be uncomfortable. It's not an easy topic to discuss, and it's not an easy thing to address, and it certainly can't be done in a day. But I think it's like sometimes these you were saying uncomfortable conversations and topics that, like, we need to unpick and just understand, like, where the roots lie to really get to the the crux of the matter and figure out how we can actually transform things.
Elizabeth Joy
Yeah. And it it is hard when exploitation has been normalized.
Stella Hertantyo
Yes.
Elizabeth Joy
Like, just comments, like, Oh, well, it's garment workers at least have a job. It's better than no job. Like, these sort of things that normalize, exploitative -- work and make it okay. And, like, it can feel really tough to challenge that if, you know, someone we know says that, and that's how they were somebody on social media, comments like that. You know?
But I think just I always feel like questioning. Just like asking questions, like, why do you think that? Or is this something that you would also say if that was your daughter or yourself? Like, would you accept that as reality, or would you find that unjust if that was your situation?
You know, just like perhaps asking questions. And those were quite loaded questions that I gave as examples. But perhaps, like, other questions too and just, like, digging deeper because I think sometimes we just get into this mindset of, again, like, normalizing injustice and pausing and, like, questioning how that maybe doesn't align with our deeper values. And I I find that really interesting exercise.
Stella Hertantyo
Yeah, I think fashion thrives on the disconnect as well. It's not just a personal thing. Like, it has been cultivated that we're not meant to really think about where our clothes come from and how they're made.
It's something that is entrenched in in the way that we exist in the fashion world. So yeah, it's a slow process of, like, reconnection and resensitizing ourselves as well.
To come back to this idea of worker-centric pricing, obviously, we both agree that it would completely shift the way we understand pricing and the way we value clothes. But maybe we can just touch a bit more on the difference between living wages and worker-centric pricing because this is the language, I mean, even Aja Barber was using it in her post. Like, living wages is the language that we have become accustomed to or has become, I guess, aspirational in the industry.
When I interviewed Anna Bienias from the Clean Clothes Campaign on the podcast, she was saying that a living wage is enough to cover basic needs for a worker and also the dependent. So it should be earned within a standard working week and at the clean closed campaign. They agree that a standard working week should not be more than 48 hours.
And also, basic needs include housing, food, money for school fees, medical fees, and also some money to buy, like clothes or other necessities, and then money to pay for transportation and communication. As well as a small amount for savings. So that's how they've framed living wages.
And I think this is included in the idea of worker-centric pricing, but it kind of takes it a little bit further.
And I also wanted to note that I remember speaking to Anna, and she was saying that before we had living wages, we had minimum wages, and that was meant to be a similar similar concept to living wages, but it just became, in a way, corrupted and it was not ended up being used for the same intention. So then we had to improve on that and and come up with the idea of living wage that really tries to respect the agency and value of work. So, yeah, do you have any thoughts on, like, the the way that worker-centric pricing builds on wages?
Elizabeth Joy
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's super, like, connected. I just feel like this pricing model that Kate Fletcher and Linda Gross have proposed is basically a method in which to implement living wages is kind of how I see it. It's sort of, like, just the mechanism to make that happen. It's like the means to the ends of living wages is basically how I see it.
And that in their model and so they have, like, a Google Doc with more information that we can link in the episode description. But in their model, it seems more context specific than, like, general living wage calculations.
Like, I know The Asia Asia Floor Wage Alliance has general living wage recommendations. But this seems like it's more directly in partnership, like, with the garment workers that are making those brands clothes. So it seems a little bit more context specific.
And also, as I said, it's just, like, the method in which is happening, which is putting the wages in the contract. If the wages are determined beforehand, then the wages are put in the contract. And during contract negotiations, that number that is allocated for wages cannot be bartered down.
And, of course, there's still some concerns with that that were brought up in that Vogue Business article, like so, you know, we have to set price, but what if then the workers just have to work more hours? Or you know, have even crazier efficiency expectations to meet certain numbers and can't take bathroom breaks.
That's something we heard from Los Angeles garment workers during the Garment Worker Center’s campaign to advocate for SP62 or the garment worker protection act. They were saying that that garment workers had such crazy quotas that they couldn't even take bathroom breaks. Or let alone a lunch break.
So that, of course, is also a concern, like, even just the number alone that doesn't for wages doesn't necessarily determine the quality of that workers, you know, time at work or their conditions and things like that but I mean, it's definitely great progress if if we got to that point, I think.
Stella Hertantyo
I think that makes a lot of sense. And also a lot of as you're saying, like, difficult questions still to grapple with in the implementation of this. Like, if we think about how this might become a reality. And implementation is always so many more questions that…that come up than when it's still, you know, something that is being developed in research phases.
Elizabeth Joy
Totally. And that's something that I think Linda Gross noted as well that this is a theory. It's a thought exercise, and they're not necessarily working out the specifics of the implementation of their academics. I hope that brands will take them up on this sort of, like, idea and work out the implementation and see how it can work in reality.
Stella Hertantyo
Yeah. And also that policymakers and people with legislative power look into things like this because I really just believe that those kinds of laws and policies do create enabling environments.
And I guess yeah, for some brands, it might be a bit more hesitant to take on these kind of new ways of structuring pricing because it doesn't suit their profit margins and things like that, it really helps to push for change in that department, not just from a voluntary point of view because it like you said, the importance of worker-centric pricing is that it's non-negotiable. It's not an option to choose between paying workers what they deserve and not.
Elizabeth Joy
For sure. For sure. So what are our final takes on worker-centric pricing?
Stella Hertantyo
I don't want this to be like a voluntary avenue. I think that it needs to be something that is mandated for it to work structurally. Also, just because of the way, like, factories and suppliers are often structured where it's often not just, like, one brand you know, using a factory. There might be multiple brands within a factory, so I'd like to see this as an agreement that exists across the board. If and when it becomes reality of being implemented.
So yeah, I think it's gonna require a lot more research as well into, like, localized cost of living and also proper consultations and consultative structures with garment workers about lived experience and how best to integrate their perspectives and insights into these structures around pay.
I think it's a really visionary research project, and I totally agree with the fundamentals of it and the way that it would transform the industry, and I look forward to seeing how it develops further.
Elizabeth Joy
Yeah. It would be transformative. And as we mentioned, it is a theory essentially now, like, an idea. And I think Gross said in the article, it's a provocation to the industry. And it is sort of open to interpretation in practice. Right? Whether it's through a policy lens, as you were mentioning, or a brand wants to experiment with this.
And I am very interested to see that, and I think it's just always important to keep in mind a holistic view because sometimes, you know, like, Arjen of Pactics, who was on the podcast, who runs a manufacturing facility, said, sometimes the legislation ends up putting all the burden on the supplier.
So, like, the additional cost is then loaded onto the supplier who already has very, very thin margins. And so I think, you know, ensuring that this additional cost to paying the workers absolutely should be paid living wages and are even more vulnerable than suppliers, but brands have even more power and larger profit margins than suppliers.
So sort of going up the chain one more and ensuring that the burden then doesn't just fall on the suppliers, but of course, you know, there's good suppliers and bad suppliers out there. We're not saying, like, every supplier is an angel. But when we consider the power balance, certainly, the brands have more power when we're talking about these mega-corporations.
So how can we ensure that if there is, you know, policy around this that it's not just squeezing the suppliers even on tighter margins, and the brand is also having to account for that additional cost, like, on their end as well.
But in any case, I I think that I wanted to end this with a quote that Linda Gross said in the article that I think gives us a lot of food for thought, which is, "the fact that it — meaning worker-centric pricing — is hard to imagine shows just how unbalanced the power structure is right now. If workers were at the table discussing these things and advocating for themselves, it could be a tipping point for real change."
Stella Hertantyo
Amazing. Yeah. I think that's a really powerful quote, and a really important point to end on just to continue thinking and ruminating on this very complex and important discussion.
Elizabeth Joy
So everyone listening, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Let us know: is there something you agree with, disagree, something we missed, something you enjoyed or found interesting, let us know your thoughts.
You can DM me on Instagram @consciousstyle. And if you enjoyed this episode, if you learned something from it, it would mean so much if you shared this episode with a friend, with a colleague, on social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, wherever. All that really, really helps us get these conversations out to more people.
Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next week.